In other countries, when one destroys evidence, it entitles the fact-finder, whether judge or jury, to a so-called "negative inference."

That is, whatever was destroyed would have showed something negative against the person who destroyed it - and the legal proceeding continues to its conclusion. It isn't simply dropped.

In post-sovok Ukraine, in time-honored sovok tradition, one gets medals and awards for destroying evidence.

There also seems to be a pattern of not going after "important" government officials, such as Kuchma and Pukach, because to do so would be to sort of admit that there is something wrong with the governmental system in Ukraine.

The forums in Ukraine have had some discussions about this, including comparisons to other systems, and the example of Presidents Nixon and Clinton being held to account in courts of law.

But then - what does one expect in former sovok countries, especially when people are still incredibly angry that Slobo Milosevic, a "slavic brother," a "strongman," and a mass murderer, was taken out of commission by NATO.

Add to that -- that there may very well have been some secret agreements made amongst the "elite" in Ukraine, such as "we won't kill President Yushchenko if cooperates in not pursuing the Gongadze case."

After all, one need only recall the "suicides" of such people as Krawchenko and others, who shot themselves, amazingly, twice, or were stabbed in the back, and Piskun explaining to Myroslava Gongadze, on video tape, how yes, indeed, it is possible for a person to commit suicide by shooting oneself twice.

Maybe it will all end once the psychosis of the sovok era wears off. Until then, it's all the "совкини сини" up to their usual Alice-in-Wonderland games.

I wouldn't be surprised if the President nominated Kuchma for the Nobel Prize for Peace.

Okay this got to me - "Ukraine's Foreign Ministry Thursday called for an objective and detailed investigation of the assassination of Pakistan's opposition leader Benazir Bhutto." The assassination is tragic but that Ukraine's FM ... when so many Ukrainians have been killed in past 17 years ... why not call for an objective and detailed investigation into the assassination of Gongadze? or any other of the dead?

elmer - an interesting article in UP "Ukraine: Country of Defeats?"
http://www2.pravda.com.ua/en/news/2007/12/25/9655.htm

"This tendency boils down to building a national idea around defeats, depicting the Ukrainian history as a series of constant tragic misfortunes and the Ukrainian people as victims of numerous bloodthirsty enemies. ...

The Soviet history is indeed not the best example of objectivism, but it brought up millions of people, creating myths of victories…

Somebody will say: “We are bringing up the generation that knows the tragic events of its country”. Yes, one should certainly do. But what will this generation know about Ukraine’s victories?

Even if people orient themselves to success and achieve it, they, being a part of the “nation that is always suffering”, will still feel the effect of such an inferiority complex, either consciously or subconsciously.

Moreover, such ideology does not at all favor the development of patriotism and national consciousness.

Quite the contrary. The desire to study, work and live abroad, not in Ukraine, and utter unwillingness to sacrifice one’s life and health for the defense of Motherland – these are some of the key results of such an ideology formation. Sociological studies, especially those held among the young people, discover such results.

The most surprising thing in the actions of the Ukrainian political and intellectual elite is a very unique ability to even turn the events, which could in fact be a subject of national pride, into a losing position."

There is a difference, I think, between studying history, and developing a national identity, whether it includes defeatism or not.

Ukraine is no different from any other European country, in kind, with respect to history.

European history is simply brutal, with invasions of various sorts, including the Romans and their Pax Romana, Goths, Visigoths, the Inquisition, and lots of other back-and-forth.

History is facts.

That includes the Holodomor, whether the russkies like it or not, whether they scream that it didn't occur or not.

Developing an identity of victimization is not history.

It's just self-defeatism.

Ukraine has gone through a MASSIVE transformation, and it has been an AMAZING process, although the development of democracy has not ended.

That alone entitles Ukrainians to a well-deserved feeling of accomplishment and pride.

We live in the XXIst century.

There's not point to developing a self-defeatist attitude based on what happened in the 12th or 13th, or even the 18th or 19th centuries.

There is a point to studying what happened, however.

At the very least, so that the mistakes of the past are not repeated.

Taras - your comment about Kolesnikov in another comment box (appt. to National Bank) - was a joke right? Sorry still mentally fogged from being sick. Feel like I should just list a whole long list of urls where people can go for information and if I could set up RSS feeds from sites and take off to a warmer climate. :)

And the pres. explanation of the Koleskinov award is - "with the order For Services, II degree, to his position on the parliamentary crisis settlement.'
http://www.ukranews.com/eng/article/91870.html

IIU, there's a joke that I like, which fits in well with the article about a country of defeats.

Two men (probably Ukrainian) are talking. The conversation goes something like this:

- Who fought for the Third Reich?
- Well, it was the Wehmacht.
- And is the Third Reich still in existence?
- Well, no.

- Who fought for the Soviet Union?
- Well, it was the Red Army.
- And is the Soviet Union still in existence?
- Well, no.

- Who fought for a free Ukraine?
- Well, it was the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA).
- And does Ukraine still exist?
- Well, yes, today it's free and independent.
- Hooray for the heroes of Ukraine!!!!!!

elmer - good joke. I think self identification and how one defines oneself is vitally important and the article was interesting for me. And the author of it Filindash of the Socialist Party of Ukraine provides and excellent example of why some people in Ukraine (incl. young people) reject 'nationalistic' history and point of view (sorry, in their opinion it is too much of a downer and 'loser'/victim position.) Filindash is a guy that rejects Kosovo's independence, was against Ohryzko's appt. as FM, supported Tsushko's allegation that he was poisoned, was part of the anti-Kuchma protests of 2000/01, is against introducing criminal responsibility for public denial of Holodomor and Holocaust, of course he also believed that the Sept. 30 vote was skewed by voters abroad (no surprise because the guy and his party were now out of office) and believed that Pliusch would be elected Speaker of the House. Interesting dude and an interesting mix of ideas.
http://www.ukranews.com/eng/article/82023.html

History is facts.

What is "nationalistic" history? The sovoks were very practised at "nationalistic" history.

It's just rewriting history, or propaganda.

Ukrainians definitely need to know their history.

Not "nationalistic" history - just history.

In other words, Filindash is fighting the wrong battle.


Tsushko is a big fat pig. He is a "совкин син", one of many, who is used to doing what they did best - lying and being a drama queen.

elmer - hey! NO personal insults okay? agree or disagree but no getting personal.

Tell me to what you are referring.

elmer - the Tsushko comment - okay to assign the behavior not the person.

Clarifying:

Tsushko is seriously overweight (characteristically this physical characteristic is described in colloquial terms as "being a big fat pig".)

That leads to high blood pressure and heart problems.

He claims to have suffered a heart attack due to "poison."


There is no credibility on his part.

elmer - I completely concur about the man's corpulence. That is indisputable and have even pointed out myself that his health concerns should be geared towards slimming rather than suspect poisoning but spare tire or no, it was a demeaning insult. Esp. to pigs. :) Is it a bit picky of me? perhaps. But as for me enough said on the topic. And no offense to you meant at all. Happy New Year!

It is indeed an insult to poor pigs everywhere!

The good news is that Ukraine has been reborn.

So I think it's OK to study history - the facts.

well, let me clarify.

Ukraine has been reborn - but it's got a long way to go to get rid of corruption and money politics.

http://www.pravda.com.ua/en/news/2008/1/1/9680.htm

Getting rid of the party list system of elections would go a VERY long way towards breaking the stranglehold of the money-power elite.

That's just one example.